15M_Tsondue_Gyaltsen

Tibet Oral History Project 
 
 
Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 
April 7, 2010 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The Tibet Oral History Project serves as a repository for the memories, opinions and ideas of elderly Tibetan 
refugees. The oral history process records the words spoken by interviewees in response to questions from an 
interviewer. The interviewees’ statements should not be considered verified or complete accounts of events and the 
Tibet Oral History Project expressly disclaims any liability for the inaccuracy of any information provided by the 
interviewees. The interviewees’ statements do not necessarily represent the views of the Tibet Oral History Project 
or any of its officers, contractors or volunteers. 
 
This translation and transcript is provided for individual research purposes only. For all other uses, including 
publication, reproduction and quotation beyond fair use, permission must be obtained in writing from: Tibet Oral 
History Project, P.O. Box 6464, Moraga, CA 94570-6464, United States.  
 
Copyright © 2012 Tibet Oral History Project

TIBET ORAL HISTORY PROJECT 
www.TibetOralHistory.org 
 
INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET 
 
1.  Interview Number: #15M 
2.  Interviewee: Tsondue Gyaltsen 
3.  Age:                        74 
4.  Date of Birth:  1936 
5.  Sex:                           Male 
6.  Birthplace:                Digung 
7.  Province:       Utsang 
8.  Year of leaving Tibet: 1959 
9.  Date of Interview:     April 7, 2010 
10. Place of Interview:  Home for the Aged, Doeguling Settlement, Mundgod, 
                                                Karwar District, Karnataka, India 
11. Length of Interview: 1 hr 51 min  
12. Interviewer:                       Marcella Adamski 
13. Interpreter:  Namgyal Tsering 
14. Videographer:  Pema Tashi 
15. Translator: Tenzin Yangchen 
 
Biographical Information:  
 
Tsondue Gyaltsen's birthplace Digung Thashoe was a distance of three to four hours by vehicle 
from Lhasa. The most unique part of his village was that it was surrounded by a fence with gates 
in the east and west. His family was engaged in farming and paid taxes to the Digung Monastery 
and the Tibetan government based on the family’s wealth. He elaborates on the two types of 
taxes and how they were paid.  
 
Tsondue Gyaltsen describes the monks called tsam-pa 'meditators' and their role in the life of the 
local villagers. Tsondue Gyaltsen became a monk at the age of 13 and joined Gaden Monastery 
near Lhasa. He provides a vivid description of an epidemic which claimed the lives of many 
young people, including a large number of monks. He was able to escape death during the 
epidemic as a result of an unusual remedy provided by his teacher.  
 
Tsondue Gyaltsen explains in length about the death ritual of chadhor in which dead bodies were 
dissected and fed to the vultures. This was the preferred method of burial except in the case of 
death by disease when bodies were buried instead of sky burial during the epidemic. 
 
Tsondue Gyaltsen witnessed the bombing of Lhasa by the Chinese in 1959. He wanted to join 
the Chushi Gangdrug [Defend Tibet Volunteer Force] but was too late and escaped into India. 
 
Topics Discussed: 
 
Taxes, monastic life, religious festivals, customs/traditions.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 1 
TIBET ORAL HISTORY PROJECT 
www.TibetOralHistory.org 
 
 
Interview #15M  
Interviewee: Tsondue Gyaltsen 
Age: 74, Sex: Male 
Interviewer: Marcella Adamski 
Interview Date: April 7, 2010  
 
  
Question:  Pa-la ‘respectful term for father,’ please tell us your name. 
 
00.00.17 
Interviewee #15M:  Tsondue Gyaltsen. 
 
Q:  His Holiness the Dalai Lama asked us to record your experiences, so that we can share your 
memories with many generations of Tibetans, the Chinese and the rest of the world. Your 
memories will help us to document the true history, culture and beliefs of the Tibetan people. Do 
you give your permission for the Tibet Oral History Project to use this interview? 
 
#15M:  Yes.  
 
Q:  Thank you for offering to share your story with us. 
 
00:01:18 
#15M:  [Nods]  
 
Q:  During this interview if you wish to take a break or stop at anytime, please let me know. 
 
#15M:  Okay.   
 
Q:  If you do not wish to answer a question or talk about something, let me know. 
 
00:01:45 
#15M:  Okay. 
 
Q:  If this interview were shown in Tibet or China, would this be a problem for you? 
 
#15M:  I have relatives in Tibet but I do not have any relations with them.  
 
Q:  Would there be any problems? 
 
00:02:15 
#15M:  There will be no problems. I do have relatives but we do not have any relations. 
Since coming here in '59, I have never gone back [to Tibet]. If one went back after coming 
here, there might be contact. However, I do not have such contacts.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 2 
Q:  We are honored to record your story and appreciate your participation in this project. 
 
00:02:52 
#15M:  Okay. 
 
Q:  Pa-la, tell me a little bit about where you were born? 
 
#15M:  I was born in Tibet near Meto Gongkar. 
 
Q:  Where is Meto Gongkar? 
 
00:03:18 
#15M:  Meto Gongkar is in the central part [of Tibet]. It's at a distance of three to four 
hours from Lhasa.  
 
Q:  Walking or on horse-back? 
 
#15M:  In a vehicle. 
 
Q:  Were there vehicles then? 
 
00:03:32 
#15M:  There were vehicles then. There were no vehicles before the arrival of the Chinese, 
but after the Chinese came, there were. 
 
Q:  What did you say? 
 
#15M:  There were no [vehicles] before the Chinese arrived in Tibet. After the Chinese 
arrived in Tibet, there were vehicles.  
 
Q:  How many people were in your village? How many families? 
 
00:04:08 
#15M:  Our district was Meto Gongkar. My home was in Digung Thashoe.  
 
Q:  How many families were there? 
 
#15M:  There were about 70-80 families.  
 
Q:  So this was a big community. 
 
00:04:36 
#15M:  It was big. There was a boundary wall surrounding the homes and gates in the east 
and west. There was no other entrance except through the two gates.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 3 
Right in the center was a big palace, which was the original monastery of Digung [Kagyu 
sect of Tibetan Buddhism]. I heard that when the Chinese arrived, they destroyed the 
whole thing.  
 
Q:  Was it unusual for a village to have a fence around it? 
 
#15M:  There was a fence around it with gates in the east and west. Nobody could enter 
except through the gates. In the early times, the gates would be shut but later they were not 
closed. In the center was an open space which was laid with stones.  
 
Q:  Was the fence around the whole village or just in… 
 
00:06:04 
#15M:  [Interrupts] The animals were tethered on the stones during winter. 
 
[Question is repeated.] 
 
#15M:  The whole village was surrounded. 
 
Q:  The fence was around the whole village. What was the fence made of? 
 
00:06:36 
#15M:  It was made of stones.  
 
Q:  Like a stone wall? 
 
#15M:  Yes, it was built of stones. 
 
Q:  Was it plastered with clay? 
 
00:06:49 
#15M:  Yes, it was plastered with clay. 
 
Q:  How high was it? 
 
#15M:  It was about four-stories high. 
 
Q:  Four stories? Could you estimate a measurement? 
 
00:07:03 
#15M:  You can estimate that [points to wall of the room] as one storey and so on. 
 
[Interpreter describes as three men's height.] 
 
Q:  Three men's height? Okay, so say six foot times three is 18 feet. What was the purpose of this 
wall?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 4 
#15M:  The purpose of building this wall was because that was the place where the original 
Digung Monastery of the Kagyu sect was established. It was said to have been established 
by Choepa Rinpoche.  
 
Q:  In your home, how many people lived in your home? 
 
00:08:19 
#15M:  There were my mother, my mother's younger sister, her four children—two sons 
and two daughters—and my mother's two sons and two daughters. My father… 
 
Q:  Your mother's sister lived in your house? 
 
#15M:  Yes, she did. There was one father and two mothers who were sisters.  
 
Q:  Were you the son of the first mother or the second mother? 
 
00:09:37 
#15M:  I was the child of the first mother. 
 
Q:  Were the mothers equally liked in the home by the father? 
 
#15M:  They were not treated differently. 
 
Q:  What kind of work did his father do? 
 
00:10:13 
#15M:  My father took the responsibility of the fields and any work outside the home. 
 
Q:  What else did he do besides field work? 
 
#15M:  [He did the] field works as well as paid taxes to the Digung Labrang [residence of a 
grand lama] and the government. There were two types of taxes called external tax and 
internal tax. The external tax was paid to the government and the internal tax was paid to 
the Digung Labrang. There were two Digung kyabgon 'high lama' in the Digung Labrang 
called senior kyabgon and junior kyabgon.  
 
Q:  Why did you have to pay tax to the monastery? 
 
00:10:58 
#15M:  Because the monastery was our leader. 
 
Q:  Were the taxes affordable? Could the family afford the taxes to the monastery and the 
government? 
 
#15M:  The tax to the Digung Labrang was separate. The Digung Labrang owned a farm 
which had to be cultivated and after the harvest, the proceeds must be offered to the 
Digung Labrang.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 5 
Q:  What was grown in the fields? 
 
00:12:07 
#15M:  Barley was grown. 
 
Q:  What was the tax that you paid to the Tibetan government? 
 
#15M:  There was transportation service and charcoal that needed to be given to the 
Tibetan government. The weather was extremely cold in winter and there was plenty of 
wood in our region. So we had to prepare charcoal and deliver it at long distances. 
 
Q:   How did you prepare coal? 
 
00:12:47 
#15M:  We prepared coal by burning wood.  
 
Q:  Then you delivered this to the Tibetan government as tax? 
 
#15M:  Yes. 
 
Q:  Where did you work to earn food for you to keep? 
 
00:14:04 
#15M:  A school was started for the very small children of the village to teach them 
Tibetan. Another [school] was started for the older children. They were taught the…, so 
that they could turn out to be…  
 
Q:  Pa-la, you said that you did some farming of some land and gave the proceeds to the 
monastery and then you burned wood to make charcoal and gave that to the government, but 
when did you have time to work, so that your family could keep the food and the labor? 
 
#15M:  The government had given land for the families to earn their livelihood. We earned 
from that. 
 
Q:  The government had provided land. 
 
00:15:31 
#15M:  Yes, the government had provided us land. 
 
Q:  You could [utilize] that land. 
 
#15M:  Yes, we could. The area of land depended upon the amount of taxes one paid.  
 
Q:  So that in addition to the land that you cultivated for the monastery, the government gave you 
some land and you cultivated that? 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  Paid tax accordingly and had a little bit of lands to cultivate.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 6 
 
Q:  Pa-la, your father worked on the lands. What did your mother do? 
  
00:16:29 
#15M:  My mother prepared food for those that worked outside [in the fields] and the 
children. She managed the home. 
 
Q:  Was the monastery the center of village life and how was that? How was monastery the 
center? 
 
#15M:  We visited the monastery on auspicious days and made offerings to the monastery.   
 
Q:  And what about the monastery to the village? 
 
00:17:27 
#15M:  There was no other… 
 
Q:  [Interrupts] Didn’t the monastery do anything beneficial for the village? 
 
#15M:  If there was no rain during summer, the monastery performed the “rain 
ceremony.”  
 
Q:  Did the monks ever work in the fields? 
 
00:18:23 
#15M:  [Shakes head] The monks did not do field work.  
 
Q:  Did they just spend their time in prayers? 
 
#15M:  Yes, they spent their time in prayers. 
 
Q:  Were the people accepting of the taxes or was there any other feelings besides acceptance? 
 
00:18:55 
#15M:  There were various degrees of taxes. Taxes were very high for the wealthy families. 
Some trelkhang 'high tax payers' were obliged to two regiments. They had to send men to 
the Drapchi Regiment and Kusung Regiment [different divisions in the Tibetan army].  
 
Q:  Why did they have to go to the army? 
 
#15M:  They had to send men to the army and bear the cost of their food and clothing. 
 
Q:  What about the lower taxes? 
 
00:19:41 
#15M:  The lower tax payers were not obliged to send men to the army. At the same time, 
they had less area of land [for cultivation].

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 7 
 
Q:  The higher tax payers owned more land… 
 
#15M:  The higher tax payers were obliged to send their men or substitutes to the army. 
 
Q:  Did the people feel this was fair? 
 
00:20:31 
#15M:  There was no feeling of dejection or anything like that because the more taxes you 
paid, the richer you were. 
 
Q:  I asked the question because later the Chinese often said the people were oppressed by the 
government and by the monasteries and forced to pay taxes. So I am enquiring pa-la, whether 
this was so. Did the people feel oppressed as the Chinese said they did? 
 
#15M:  They were lying.  
 
Q:  This monastery in the middle of your village, the Digung Monastery, had it been there for 
many years, many centuries? Was it an old monastery? 
 
00:22:26 
#15M:  I have no knowledge about that. 
 
Q:  But it was there when your father was born? 
 
#15M:  Yes, it was. 
 
Q:  How many years earlier to that, can you make a guess, was it there? 
 
00:22:52 
#15M:  If I make a guess, I suppose it was about 10-15 generations [old]. 
 
Q:  How many monks lived in the monastery? 
 
#15M:  In the Digung Monastery in my village, there were only about 30 monks.  
 
Q:  That's not too big. 
 
00:23:32 
#15M:  It was considered the main monastery of Digung. It was considered the original 
establishment. There were two Digung kyabgon and if [one of the] lamas passed away, the 
funeral rituals were performed here and if the lama reincarnated, his enthronement 
ceremony happened in this very region. 
 
Q:  The lama who was the head of the monastery, when he was alive, was this very special 
person, a reincarnation person?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 8 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  He was a reincarnation person. 
 
Q:  He was a reincarnated lama. He was the reincarnation of which person? 
 
#15M:  I do not know how many reincarnations had been born. The Digung Monastery in 
my village had 30 monks. There were two other Digung [Monasteries] called Digung 
Yaraga and Digung Thay. The Digung Thay consisted of two tsam-pa 'meditators' 
divisions. [The tsam-pa are those that have] matted hair on their heads. They have matted 
hair on their heads and they are called tsam-pa.  
 
Q:  Were they monks? 
 
00:25:25 
#15M:  Yes, they were monks with [touches hands upon head]. 
 
Q:  Why did they have that? 
 
#15M:  They were tsam-pa and went into retreat. There were two such divisions and a 
monk division. These divisions consisted of a population of 300 monks. The Digung 
kyabgon lived at Digung Yaraga. There were over 500 monks at this monastery.  
 
Q:  How many tsam-pa were there [at Digung Thay Monastery]? 
 
00:26:20 
#15M:  There were about 100 monks and 200 tsam-pa. There were two divisions of tsam-pa 
called tsam-pa east and tsam-pa west.  
 
Q:  Were some monks, they stayed in meditation for long? 
 
#15M:  There were some who sat in retreat for a year and some for three years.  
 
Q:  Where would they be in this meditation? 
 
00:27:13 
#15M:  Each one had a separate room and a courtyard. The monastery provided them with 
tea and water. In order to get water [inside the cells], there was a stone with a groove 
outside. A water container was placed inside [the cell]. When [someone] came to provide 
water, he knocked on the window and said, "Solchu 'honorific term for water'" and the lid 
of the water container was opened. Water was poured onto the groove in the stone. Water 
was brought and poured onto the stone groove.  
 
Q:  Was the same thing done in the case of tea? 
 
#15M:  Water was poured on the stone groove and [it filled] the water container inside.  
 
Q:  So these meditating monks, they were in rooms?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 9 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  There were separate rooms for them, very silent and no one is 
allowed to enter. 
 
Q:  Was this Digung sect specially known for meditation? 
 
00:28:43 
#15M:  These tsam-pa were very renowned. There was one lama called Gelong Angor 
Rinpoche. He was supposed to have a [letter] "A" on his foot. The "A" was formed 
naturally on his foot. He was poor. There were many people who approached him for 
divinations. He'd say, "Just wait. I will offer you food." and he would travel in the air to 
Lhasa and bring back steaming hot momo 'dumplings.' This was a story that used to be 
told.  
 
Q:  Was he alive at the time that pa-la was? He was living at the same time? 
 
#15M:  [Speaks without listening to question] He was showing miracles.  
 
[Question is repeated.] 
 
00:30:32 
#15M:  I have seen him. The reason I could see him was because I have an uncle who was a 
tsam-pa and he became blind. I used to accompany him on circumambulation and assist 
him. When he sat in retreat, I used to cook for him and serve him food, as he meditated.  
 
Q:  Was he your relative? 
 
#15M:  Yes, he was a relative. 
 
Q:  How was he your relative? 
 
00:31:04 
#15M:  He was a relative from my father's side. I lived for about two years at the 
monastery.  
 
Q:  How old were you when you did that, pa-la? 
 
#15M:  I was 9 years old at that time. 
 
Q:  You entered the monastery? When did you become a monk? What year? 
 
00:32:01 
#15M:  I lived there for nine [?] years. During the nine years, there were two teachers that 
taught me. One was a lame monk who did not beat me much. The other teacher beat me a 
lot. I would have to fill out my cheek [with air] and he hit it with a bamboo stick.    
 
Q:  Pa-la, when did you go to the monastery from your home first?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 10 
#15M:  When my uncle, the tsam-pa, passed away, [I] returned home. [My parents] said, 
"We need someone in the house who understands the taxes. You should not [continue to 
be] a monk. We will keep you at home." I told them that I did not wish to stay home and at 
the age of 13, I became a monk.  
 
Q:  So you became a monk at age 13. 
 
00:33:28 
#15M:  Yes, at Gaden [Monastery]. 
 
Q:  You were a monk from 9 to 13? 
 
#15M:  I left [home] to become a monk at age 13. 
 
Q:  So from 9-13 you stayed at home? 
 
00:34:05 
#15M:  Yes. [At age 13] I went to the monastery. 
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  But before 9, he helped his uncle. Was that in the monastery? 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  At the meditation monastery.  
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  When did he go, like 6 years old or something? When did he go to 
his uncle? 
 
Q:  How old were you when you went to help your blind uncle? 
 
#15M:  I was 9 years old then. 
 
Q:  Were you there for two years? 
 
00:34:47 
#15M:  I was there until I was 10. 
 
Q:  Then you returned home. 
 
#15M:  From there, I returned home and stayed for two years, until I was 12. 
 
Q:  When you left for the monastery, why did you want to go to the monastery instead of staying 
at home and write family business? 
 
00:35:22 
#15M:  I wished to become a monk and practice the dharma. So I became a monk. The 
teacher taught me the scriptures very well. I was very sharp at that time. I could memorize 
two long pages and two short pages of the scriptures [at a time]. Then I would be taught 
khalap.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 11 
 
Q:  What's khalap? 
 
#15M:  Khalap is oral teaching, which one must keep in mind. I could recite the whole thing 
by memory to my teacher. My teacher did not beat me. However, I was very naughty. In 
the evening the teacher would take a test and then give me tsampa 'flour made from roasted 
barley' mixed with cheese and butter. After the test, he would give me that and tell me to go 
to sleep. In the cold of winter, I would be clad only in the thonga 'monks' sleeveless shirt' 
and not the zen 'shawl-like upper garment' and made to recite the scriptures. 
 
Q:  So for how long you were given very little clothing and it was cold and it was better to study 
that way? Is that what you are saying? 
 
00:38:28 
#15M:  It was said that if one was clad in warm clothing, he would feel the warmth and not 
study. He would fall asleep. If one was cold, he would not sleep.  
 
Q:  Would it be in the monastery that he was then kept kind of cool, not too warm? 
 
#15M:  It was in the monastery. 
 
Q:  Which monastery was it? 
 
00:39:02 
#15M:  At Gaden.  
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  So he joined that monastery and not the one in his village?  
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  Not in his village. 
 
Q:  Ah, he went to Gaden. Did he have a room of his own? Was he in with other students? 
 
00:39:23 
#15M:  [I] was not kept inside the room. [I] sat in the courtyard. 
 
Q:   So you sat on the verandah and studied. And how many days did you do that? 
 
#15M:  I did that for five to six years. Then in one year, there was an epidemic in Lhasa 
including in Sera, Drepung and Gaden [monasteries] and many young monks died. Many 
died in Lhasa and it was said that dogs were dragging [the bodies] in the streets.  
 
Q:  So there was an epidemic or a plague. How old was pa-la at that time? 
 
00:41:07 
#15M:  [Speaks before question is interpreted] When this epidemic occurred, all the 
younger people died. All the hair on the head fell off. I developed boils in my eyes and 
could not open them. Chang 'home-brewed beer' was brought from my teacher's home,

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 12 
which was located below the mountain pass. He mixed musk in the chang and gave it to me. 
The dormitories of the monks were like this [makes a circular motion and points to the 
middle] and right there was the courtyard. Every young monk of my age in those 
dormitories died. I was the only one who became well. I was cured because of the musk.  
 
Q:  Does he see people dying or he hears of it? 
 
#15M:  I saw it myself.  
 
Q:  Did the monks in the monastery get this illness? 
 
00:42:58 
#15M:  Yes, many died in Sera and the same occurred in Drepung as well as in Gaden. It 
was all the younger ones that died. Since it was a bad disease, chadhor could not be 
performed.  
 
Q:  What is chadhor? 
 
#15M:  Chadhor ‘sky burial ritual’ could not be offered to the birds. Since it was a bad 
disease, [the bodies] needed to be buried.  
 
Q:  Did they have a name for this disease? 
 
00:43:53 
#15M:  The epidemic was in three types. One was the hair fall; the other was fever and 
then the boils. The boils occurred in the eyes. There was this injection that used to be given 
here [points to left arm].  
 
Q:  Was there injections in Tibet? 
 
#15M:  A tiny cut was made in the flesh here [points to left arm] and [to the interpreter] do 
you know the khambu gamzik? 
 
Q:  What's that? 
 
00:44:28 
#15M:  The inner core of the apricot was broken and medicine was filled in the hollow part. 
This was tied on it [points where the cut was made on the arm] and bandaged with a cloth. 
A week later it was untied and pus would have formed there.  
 
Q:  Were the boils under the arms here? 
 
#15M:  There were boils. They were called lhandum. 
 
Q:  Were did the boils occur, on the arms or the face?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 13 
00:45:54 
#15M:  It occurred on the face as well as on the arms. 
 
Q:  The name, it sounds like, the name is the bubonic plague. Small-pox? Maybe small-pox. 
 
#15M:  Those who were not afflicted [by the illness] abstained from having contact with the 
afflicted. They were isolated. When the boils healed, they formed depressions in the flesh. 
 
Q:  I think that's probably small-pox, with the hole. It's terrible. If you went to the monastery and 
you were 13, so this had to be in, somewhere 1949-1950-1951.  
 
00:47:15 
#15M:  I think I was around 15 years old at that time. Since it was a bad disease [the 
bodies] had to be buried and it used to be said that there was no space left to bury [the 
dead]. 
 
Q:  In your monastery in Gaden, how many people died roughly? What percentage? 
 
#15M:  Perhaps a thousand.  
 
Q:  And Gaden had how many thousands then? 
 
00:48:11 
#15M:  The average figure of Gaden was 3,300 monks. However, there were more than 
3,300.  
 
Q:  If there were 3,300 there, 1,000 of them died; so one in three people.  
 
#15M:  Yes, that is right. 
 
Q:  Do they know what caused this illness? Do they… 
 
00:48:40 
#15M:  [Interrupts] It did not affect the older ones.  
 
[Question is repeated.] 
 
#15M:  Much later, after the epidemic had ended, it was said that the epidemic was 
brought by a nun. The nun was the cause of the epidemic. It was then said that she had 
gone away beyond the mountain pass.  
 
Q:  How did she get it? 
 
00:49:08 
#15M:  The disease was brought… 
 
Q:  …by the nun?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 14 
 
#15M:  Yes.  
 
Q:  Why did they think a nun brought it? 
 
00:49:31 
#15M:  It was said that the nun had brought the illness and it spread. 
 
Q:  Where did the nun get the disease from? 
 
#15M:  I do not know how she got the disease. [Smiles] 
 
Q:  Had she been traveling outside of Tibet? 
 
00:50:07 
#15M:  The nun was said to be staying in the monastery. Then many young people became 
sick and died. After the illness ended, it was said that the nun had left the monastery. 
That's what was said. 
 
Q:   Why was the nun staying in a monastery? 
 
#15M:  I do not know about that. 
 
Q:  Was there any inoculation? Did any outside people come to give them shots or needles for 
protection? 
 
00:51:14 
#15M:  Such things were very rare. If there were doctors present in the monastery, they 
would be consulted. Good doctors were found in Lhasa. So for analysis of urine [of a sick 
person], it was filled in the horn of yak, covered and taken to Lhasa on horseback to the 
doctors there. Then they diagnosed the illness and provided medicines.  
 
Q:  Did they find any medicine that was effective or did the epidemic just go away slowly? 
 
#15M:  Very good medicines were available. There were doctors in Lhasa at Tengayling 
and Chakpori.  
 
Q:  Really, the medicine helped cure people? 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  Yes, it helped cure people because the two main doctors, according 
to their prescription, medicines were required. 
 
Q:  Good. So every monastery, Drepung had it, Sera had it and Gaden, everybody? Three 
monasteries had this epidemic?  
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  Yeah, all the monasteries had it. Even they had it in Lhasa.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 15 
Q:  Even the city of Lhasa? 
 
00:53:17 
#15M:  Yes. Monks of the three monasteries of Sera, Drepung and Gaden assembled in 
Lhasa for the Monlam Chenmo 'Great Prayer Festival.' After the assembly got over, there 
were dhodi constructed about this height [gestures off camera] and another one higher than 
this and then a third one. There were three such dhodi. Medicine dispensers sat on the 
dhodi. The medicines were in [pouches made of] woolen cloth and a piece of paper attached 
to it. The names of the medicines were attached to the medicine pouch. After checking the 
pulse, the doctor [gave the prescription] and the dispenser took the medicine out of the 
pouches.  
 
Q:  And did it bring the epidemic to a close?  
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  …close and they were checked and then medicine was distributed. 
Stalls were made for the medicines.  
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  A medicine stall was held in Lhasa to give out medicine. 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]: …during the Monlam period.]  
 
Q:  When is the Monlam period? 
 
#15M:  The Monlam's duration is 21 days.  
 
Q:  In what month? 
 
00:54:59 
#15M:  It started on the 4th day of the 1st Tibetan lunar month. On the 15th day chonga 
choepa '15th day offering' was celebrated, thogya 'pyramid-shaped offerings' took place on 
the 16th and jampa dhende 'bringing out of the statue of Jetsun Jampa Gonpo' was 
celebrated on the 17th day.   
 
Q:  Was the medicine given out freely or did people have to buy it? 
 
#15M:  The medicine was free. One did not have to pay for it. 
 
Q:  Can you remember what the medicine looked like? 
 
00:55:51 
#15M:  They were in the form of pills as well as powder. They were Tibetan medicines. It 
was similar to the medicine that is dispensed at the Mentsekhang [Tibetan Medical Center] 
here.  
 
Q:  You said that when the epidemic broke out, the people were dying so fast that their bodies 
were in the streets in Lhasa?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 16 
#15M:  It used to be said that the dogs were dragging [the bodies]. It came to be said that 
there was no space left at the Sera Shar cemetery. [The bodies] needed to be buried at the 
cemetery as only [dead bodies of] people [who died] without bad diseases could be offered 
to the birds. There was the thomdhen who conducted the chadhor [shows cutting motion 
with hands]. Chadhor was conducted and [the bodies] offered to the birds. [Those bodies] 
which did not have bad diseases were given to the birds. 
 
Q:  Did people think this was any kind of an omen or punishment or anything? What was the 
attitude about why this was afflicting the population? 
 
00:58:10 
#15M:  When the epidemic was present, [healthy people] did not have contact with those 
that had contracted the disease. They remained within their rooms and did not venture 
where the disease was since the epidemic was infectious.  
 
Q:  When they had to take them out of town, did they bury people or cremate the bodies? You 
said there was no room in town, in the village—no room left. So you took the bodies outside. 
Did they burn them, cremate them or did they bury the bodies? 
 
00:59:22 
#15M:  They might have buried them close to each other. 
 
Q:  Pa-la, how long did this last? Like a month or one week or how long were people sick before 
it went away? 
 
#15M:  It might have been one month or two months. The epidemic came and [the number 
of sick] increased. 
 
Q:  How many months did it take altogether? 
 
01:00:14 
#15M:  About two months. 
 
Q:  And the nun they said brought the disease, do you know what happened to her, pa-la? 
 
#15M:  It was said that the nun left and the disease was at an end. 
 
Q:  Just that when she left, there was no disease left. 
 
01:00:54 
#15M:  Yes. 
 
Q:  Does he believe it was the nun's fault for the disease? 
 
#15M:  That's what people used to say. 
 
Q:  Did you believe that to be true?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 17 
 
01:01:11 
#15M:  Yes, I thought that was true. I was sick myself. Look, there are windows in a row 
here [points around the interview room]. Let's take them as the monks' quarters. In each of 
these quarters lived a teacher and two or three students. So imagine how many would have 
died in a community hall like this. I was the only one who became well. If we take this hall 
as an example, I was the only one who survived. The rest died. How many would have died 
in the other houses! If we take these windows as the quarters, how many monk students 
were in each room! I was the only monk student in my quarters. My teacher's home was 
below the monastery. They brought chang from there and mixed it with latsi 'musk.' After 
drinking that, I became well. I was the only one who survived, while all those who were 
afflicted died.  
 
Q:  From which animal do you get latsi? 
 
#15M:  Latsi is derived from a wild animal called musk deer.  
 
Q:  Was the latsi its waste matter or blood or what was it? 
 
01:03:20 
#15M:  It was obtained from the genital of the male animal. 
 
Q:  And did his teacher survive? 
 
#15M:  He did not fall sick. He was older.  
 
Q:  Pa-la, do you know after this epidemic, how many people died from the epidemic in Lhasa? 
 
01:04:41 
#15M:  I think it was countless because there were more monks in Sera and Drepung than 
Gaden. [Imagine] how many would have died! 
 
Q:  This epidemic happened when you were 15 years old and you had gone back to the 
monastery when you were 13. I just want to review. You studied meditation and scriptures for 
two years and then the epidemic came.  
 
#15:  Then I became well and everything was good. 
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  So what does he do next? He is the only student in his group, is that 
right, that survived? 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  Yes. 
 
Q:  And then pa-la, what do you do next?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 18 
01:06:29 
#15M:  Generally if people died from diseases other than the epidemic, there were 
thomdhen who conducted the chadhor by cutting the flesh and feeding it to the birds. The 
birds arrived who also had their rules. One of the vultures flew, while all the rest of the 
birds sat bowing [bows head]. The leader of the vultures took a bite of the flesh and flew 
away. Then the rest of the [vultures] went to eat.  
 
Q:  Was that later on because you said none of the people who died in the epidemic were given 
to the vultures, so we are talking about a later time now. 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  A later time. 
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  How does he know about the sky burial so much? 
 
#15M:  I have seen it with my eyes. There was a [sky burial] place at Digung Thay, which 
was considered very holy. It used to be said that not a day passed when a corpse was not 
brought there. There is a very holy cemetery in India called Siwatse Dhutoe. It was said 
that there is no difference between the Siwatse Dhutoe and the Digung Thay cemetery.  
 
Q:  Does it mean that all the flesh gets eaten here? It was eaten by the birds? 
 
01:09:23 
#15M:  After the birds had eaten [the flesh], only the bones were left behind. The bones 
were ground and mixed with tsampa; even the brain within the head was ground and mixed 
with tsampa and they were once again fed to the birds. Everything got eaten. There was 
nothing left behind.  
 
Q:  This area was near you when you were a child or after you left the monastery? 
 
#15M:  That area was called Digung Thay. That was the monastery where I told you I lived 
for two years. 
 
Q:  During the two years near Gaden Monastery? 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  Not Gaden. 
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  He was in Drepung? 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  He was in Gaden and not in Drepung.  
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  What monastery did he go to? 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  He went to the Gaden Monastery but earlier, before when he was at 
the age of 9, or something like that, with uncle he stayed. 
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  With his uncle, he stayed and then he saw the mountain.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 19 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  Because nearby, the holy place was located. 
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  Got it. I understand. So he saw it with his own eyes. 
 
01:11:39 
#15M:  I am not relating anything more [than it actually happened]. I am not telling any 
lies. I am relating exactly what happened. 
 
Q:  This is important information. Did people wish to have a sky burial? Is that their first choice 
or were there other kinds of burials that they wanted? 
 
#15M:  If it [the death] was not from a bad disease, not an infectious disease like the one I 
told you about now, all those that did not have infectious diseases were fed to the birds. 
 
Q:  You wanted us to know about the sky burial and my question was, did people prefer the sky 
burial or were there other forms of burial that they wanted? 
 
01:12:51 
#15M:  When someone died, rituals were performed in the home. Then it [the body] was 
taken to the cemetery. Inviting monks to read prayers depended on the economic situation 
of the family, whether to invite monks from the main monastery or the datsang [section in a 
monastery]. Offerings were made [to the monks].  
 
Q:  Why was the sky burial the first choice? Why was it not buried or cremated? 
 
#15M:  That was the tradition since long ago.  
 
Q:  And what was the next option? 
 
01:13:54 
#15M:  It was always given to the birds.  
 
Q:  But if you didn't live near a mountain to do that, what other kind of burial could you have? 
 
#15M:  [Speaks before question is interpreted] These days if someone dies, he is cremated 
at the cemetery. [I am] old and if [I] could go back to Tibet and die there in my country, I 
could have the chadhor. [I] would prefer that. Chadhor is preferred to burning.   
 
[Question is repeated.] 
 
01:14:43 
#15M:  It would be taken there, wherever the [sky burial] cemetery was. The person who 
conducted the chadhor would be there.  
 
Q:  So everybody who died in his village, do they have a sky burial?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 20 
#15M:  Yes. However, it was not everybody who performed the chadhor [makes cutting 
motion with hand]. There was one particular person who conducted it. Nobody else 
touched [the body]. 
 
Q:  Pa-la, did you ever witness with your own eyes a sky burial? 
 
01:16:03 
#15M:  I have seen it with my eyes. I told you that I stayed for two years at the meditation 
monastery at Digung Thay, where there were two tsam-pa Monasteries and a [regular] 
monastery. There used to be a chadhor held everyday at the cemetery.  
 
Q:  Have you been to witness it? 
 
#15M:  Yes, I have been to witness it. The vultures sat there and a person with a stick stood 
guard over them. The vultures sat thus [bends head and shoulders]. Then the leader of the 
vultures flew down. When the leader landed on the ground, all the vultures sat with bowed 
heads, just like humans do when they show respect to someone.  
 
Q:  Did he see the body being dissected? Has he witnessed that? 
 
01:17:32 
#15M:  [Speaks before question is interpreted] After they landed, their wings moved like 
this [moves hands up and down]. He [the leader of the vultures] took a bite from the 
dissected flesh and flew away. 
 
[Question is repeated.] 
 
#15M:   Yes, I have witnessed that. 
 
Q:   Do they start with any particular part of the body? 
 
01:18:03 
#15M:  Yes, the person [who dissected the body] was called thomdhen. 
 
[Question is repeated.] 
 
#15M:  He put on a different type of attire, meditated and then dissected with a knife. 
 
Q:   Which part did he do first? 
 
01:18:25 
#15M:  It was started from the upper part of the body. 
 
Q:  And then did he cut straight down? 
 
#15M:  No, the body was laid face down.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 21 
Q:  Did he cut straight down or sever the hands? 
 
01:18:35 
#15M:  The hands were not severed. [Makes cutting motion with hand.] 
 
Q:  Right down the middle? 
 
#15M:  Right down the middle starting from the upper part. 
 
Q:   And what happens to the head? 
 
01:18:59 
#15M:  The head was ground. The brain was removed and mixed with tsampa. The bones 
were ground finely and mixed with tsampa and given to the vultures. There was nothing 
that was left behind. Everything was cleaned. That was what I witnessed.  
 
Q:  What about the organs in the body, the heart, kidneys, lungs?  
 
#15M:  It was cut here [indicates front portion of body] and [the organs] removed. They 
were fed to the birds along with the flesh. 
 
Q:  How long does it take for the vultures to finish taking away a whole body? 
 
01:20:35 
#15M:  It took about an hour. After all the bones were eaten, they flew away and slept on 
the rocky mountains, with their wings stretched out in the sun.  
 
Q:  Does every village have a place where they take their bodies to be dissected for the vultures? 
 
#15M:  Yes, they did. 
 
Q:  And does every village have a man who does that work? 
 
01:21:33 
#15M:  There was never any burial [underground]. As long as it [the death] was not from a 
bad disease, there never was any burial. It was considered bad to bury. It was considered 
good [for the body] to be given to the birds. 
 
[Question is repeated.] 
 
#15M:  Yes, most villages had [a place for sky burial]. In some cases, if they did not have 
one, [the bodies] were brought on horses and yaks from distance of two or three days.  
 
Q:   Do they do the feeding of the bodies in the spring, summer, winter, fall, all year long? 
 
01:22:40 
#15M:  It was done throughout the seasons. It was done throughout.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 22 
 
Q:  What happens to the person's possessions, their earrings and things like that? What happens 
to them? 
 
#15M:  Those were offered to the monasteries. They were offered to the monasteries and 
lamas. 
 
Q:  Does the monastery keep those items? 
 
01:23:34 
#15M:  Then they sold them. 
 
Q:  And are the monks, do they have sky burials the same as lay people? 
 
#15M:  Whether one was a monk or a lay person, it was the same.  
 
Q:  Was it the same for women? 
 
01:24:11 
#15M:  It was the same for women. 
 
Q:  So before we heard about the sky burial, I was asking you when the epidemic was over, pa-
la, in the monastery, what did you do next? 
 
#15M:  I continued to be a monk.  
 
Q:  What happened then? 
 
01:24:48 
#15M:  I continued to be a monk and then I lived separately from my teacher. There are 
the monasteries called Gyuto, relocated in Dharamsala [Himachal Pradesh, India] and the 
Gyumey, relocated in Hunsur [Karnataka, India]. After completing his Geshe Degree 
'Master in metaphysics,' my teacher left for Gyuto Monastery. And then my teacher was 
deputed as an abbot to a branch monastery of the Gyuto Monastery. I accompanied him as 
his steward. I was the steward to the abbot. 
 
Q:  And where is this monastery located? 
 
#15M:  The Gyuto Monastery was located in Lhasa. It was at Ramoche in Lhasa. Both the 
Gyuto and Gymey Monasteries are located at Ramoche. From there he had to go to a 
branch monastery of the Gyuto Monastery as an abbot. He took me along as his steward.  
 
Q:   Does the teacher travel very much in a year? 
 
01:27:38 
#15M:  Until he reached the monastery where he was deputed, he was provided a 
certificate by the government authorizing him to tax people for a horse for his travel and

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 23 
animals for the transportation of his belongings. When he produced the certificate from the 
government, he was escorted from one place to the next. He would receive a donkey, a 
horse, a yak or an ox to load his things. They [the tax payers] also brought him a horse to 
ride on. This was done from one point to the next.  
 
Q:  And this special letter; is it from the Tibetan government or is it from…yeah, from the 
Tibetan government? 
 
#15M:   It was a letter from the Tibetan government. 
 
Q:  The epidemic is over and it's 1952. What happens between '52 and the next five years? What 
happens in his life? 
  
01:29:59 
#15M:  I lived separately [from my teacher]. In autumn and during the time of cultivation, 
I went to work in the fields. During the sowing and harvesting seasons, I went home to help 
my parents in field work. 
 
Q:  How old were you then? 
 
#15M:  I was 23 years old when I escaped in 1959. Until then, I stayed at home and helped 
my parents. I did not stay relaxing at home on account of my being a monk. I helped my 
parents in the fields. I did not plow the lands, but pulled out the weeds from the fields of 
wheat, peas and barley. I helped them in whatever way they required. I did not sit relaxing 
at home just because I was a monk.  
 
[Interviewer to interpreter]:  Was he still traveling with his teacher at that time? 
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  No, no. He left the teacher and went back to the house. 
 
Q:  How many years was he with the teacher? 
 
#15M:  I was eight years with the teacher. 
 
Q:  Eight years? From which year? You traveled with your teacher who became an abbot after 
you became well from the epidemic… 
 
#15M:  Then I lived separately. I did not live with my teacher. When the teacher was 
leaving [for Gyuto Monastery] he could get other stewards but he preferred to take me, 
who was his student, with him. So I left with him. 
 
Q:   After he took you with him, how many years did you stay with him? 
 
01:32:39 
#15M:  [I] stayed about two years. And then I went back to the monastery.  
 
Q:  Which monastery? Gaden?

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 24 
 
#15M:  Yes, I went back to Gaden. His Holiness the Dalai Lama was holding the ceremony 
of offering of the Geshe tsenthak at the three monasteries of Sera, Drepung and Gaden.  
 
Q:  What is Geshe tsenthak? 
 
01:33:18 
#15M:  His Holiness the Dalai Lama had to make an offering for the Geshe 'Buddhist 
philosophy' Degree. 
 
Q:   His Holiness had to make the offering. 
 
#15M:  Yes, the offering had to be made. It was thukpa patsema 'specially-prepared rice' 
mixed with apricots, dates, grapes and liquid butter. That was thukpa patsema. [The 
monks] had huge bowls like this [joins palms together to form shape of bowl]. A ladleful [of 
thukpa patsema] was put into it and pressed down [shows action of ladle pressing down on 
the food in the bowl].Then another ladleful was poured onto that and again pressed down. 
And once more another ladleful was put on it. The bowl looked heaping.  
 
Q:   What's in the thukpa? 
 
01:34:54 
#15M:  There were dates, white grapes and apricots in it. 
 
Q:  What else? 
 
#15M:  Liquid butter. The butter from dri 'female yak' was used. 
 
Q:  Were there rice or wheat in it? 
 
01:35:24 
#15M:  It was [made of] rice. I was one of those who carried the thukpa in containers and 
served tea.   
 
Q:  So that was the special ceremony.  
 
[Interpreter to interviewer]:  He got the opportunity to come back to Gaden. 
 
Q:  And then do you stay at the monastery there or what happens? 
 
#15M:  My teacher told me that I must accompany him to the monastery, but my mother 
and grandmother arrived and said, "Times are very bad. Please do not go back [to the 
monastery with your teacher]. Stay [at home] or we might never get to see each other 
again." About 500 monks of Gaden had left to join the Chushi Gangdrug [Defend Tibet 
Volunteer Force]. There was a separate division called Gaden Division [in the Force].

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 25 
I was not allowed to accompany my teacher. Had they sent me with my teacher, I would 
not be here.  
 
Q:  What was the danger of going to the monastery? 
 
01:37:33 
#15M:  Times were bad because there was a war looming over.  
 
Q:  Did he join those monks [who went to fight]? 
 
#15M:  I did not join the force. I became sick during the Monlam Festival and my mother 
and older sister came to see me. They asked me to come home. I lived at home and then 
[received a message which] said that monks should not stay in the villages but return to 
their monasteries. On my way back to the monastery, as I left the district [headquarters] of 
Meto Gongkar the next morning, Lhasa was being shelled by the Chinese. Lhasa was 
covered in smog and echoed with the sound “dhing, dhing.”  
 
Q:  You heard artillery. And then what happens next in your story? We're going to have to wrap 
up. 
 
01:39:36 
#15M:  When the Chinese first appeared in Tibet, it was during the Monlam Festival in 
Lhasa that they first came to Lhasa. 
 
Q:  What year was it? 
 
#15M:  I do not know which year but it was during the Monlam Festival.  
 
Q:  When did you first see [the Chinese]? 
 
01:40:02 
#15M:  It was several years after I had become a monk. Then there was the battle at Sera 
[Monastery]. There was a monastery in Lhasa called Tsomoling and close to it a big road 
called Chanzesha which led to the Potala Palace. On one side of the road was the rented 
house where we stayed during the Great Monlam Festival in Lhasa. In the courtyard of this 
rented house was a small house in which lived a very high Chinese official and a woman. 
We were young monks then and used to play around and he complained to the older monks 
after which we got a beating on the head. 
 
Once it was night and the other monks had gone to attend the assembly, while I was alone 
[in the house]. The house where the Chinese official lived was in the courtyard and I could 
see a lamp burning. I peeped in and saw the Chinese official break four eggs and stir it. 
The woman was cutting some onions. I wanted to spite them. If I moved in front, they 
would have seen me. I took a handful of dust and waited. [They] fried the onion in the pan 
and then added the eggs. Just then I threw the dust in the pan and fled.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 26 
Q:  It sounds like it was your protest. We are going to have to wrap up now but it sounds like 
when you heard the shelling in the background, was that Lhasa being bombed? Was that 1959? 
 
01:43:39 
#15M:  That was in the year 1959.  
 
Q:  Do you know the month? 
 
#15M:  It was in March. 
 
Q:  Had His Holiness left at that time or not? 
 
01:43:49 
#15M:  When the shelling was going on, His Holiness was there [in Lhasa]. 
 
Q:  After Lhasa was attacked and occupied, how soon after that did you leave Tibet? 
 
#15M:  It was on the 15th or 16th of March 1959 that I left the monastery. Then I went to 
escort a lama who belonged to my village. 
 
Q:  Where? To Gaden? 
 
01:44:55 
#15M:  No, he belonged to my village and needed to be escorted to India. When I reached 
home, I told my parents that I wanted to join the Chushi Gangdrug and fight. My father 
agreed, but my mother cried and pleaded with me not to go. She said we would never meet 
again.  
 
Q:  Your mother would not give permission. 
 
#15M:  [She] asked me not to go but I insisted that I wished to go. At that time there was no 
thought about going to India. I believed I would fight in the war and be back after that. I 
never thought that I would go to India.    
 
Q:  Did you join the Chushi Gangdrug? 
 
01:46:57 
#15M:  I did not join the Chushi Gangdrug. When we reached there, the Chushi Gangdrug 
had left for India. That was in the 4th Tibetan lunar month. There was a double 6th lunar 
month that year and we left during the last days of the second 6th lunar month.  
 
They [the Chinese] had seized all the boats. We found one boat in which we managed to 
cross. We could not go to the villages to buy tsampa as the Chinese had arrived there. Had 
we gone there, we'd be captured by the Chinese.  
 
Q:  Maybe we'll talk to you about that again, but right now we're going to wrap up for today.

Tibet Oral History Project Interview #15M – Tsondue Gyaltsen 27 
#15M:  [Interrupts] I had a gun. It was a short-barrel English-made rifle. I had only five 
bullets. [Smiles]  
 
Q:  Did you fire your gun? 
 
01:48:39 
#15M:  I did a trial. I fired at a target but could not hit it. I had never used a gun before. 
 
Q:  So you obeyed your grandmother and your teacher and you didn't join the Chushi Gangdrug 
but you tried to fire your gun somewhere and it didn't work. 
 
#15M:  I tried the gun. [Smiles]  
 
Q:  We're going to conclude our interview now and I want to thank you very much for your 
story. We have many more things to talk to you about and maybe we can do that another time but 
for today, I want to thank you for this very helpful interview. 
 
01:50:01 
#15M:  Okay. 
 
Q:  And if this interview was shown in Tiber or China, would this be a problem for you? 
 
#15M:  There will be no problem for me because I am living here. There will be no 
problem. 
 
Q:  Can we use your real name for this project? 
 
01:50:32 
#15M:  Yes, you can. I have relatives in Tibet but there has been no contact between us. I 
had a relative who passed away on the 15th of November 2002. [The relative] died from 
hypertension and diabetes. [The relative] visited Tibet twice but I have not been there since 
[I left].  
 
 
END OF INTERVIEW